Fwd: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender & the Blues'

Wed May 30 20:11:48 EDT 2012

I am reminded that Hank Williams said that he recieved all of his musical
training from a local blues player named Rufus "Tee Tot" Payne,  He was a
street musician in Georgiana and Greenville where Hank grew up.  Died in
charity hospital in Montgomery and buried in an unmarked grave in Lincoln
cemetary.

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 6:30 PM, Joel Fritz <willie_mctell@comcast.net>wrote:

> I think the commercial term for country music in the 1920s was
> "hillbilly."  There were a lot of records released by artists like
> Charley Poole, Gid Tanner, Darby and Tarlton, just to name a few.
> Jimmie Rodgers was the first big commercial success, but stuff like
> string band music, ballads, and cowboy songs preceded him.
>
> Did blues become R&B?  It's a semantic thing.  In the '50s when the
> record business started charting singles blues records that sold well
> made the R&B chart because that was the category the business tracked
> the sales in.  Of course there's an evolution and crossover thing too.
> Fats Domino, Smiley Lewis, Joe Turner (the "Chains of Love" and "Shake
> Rattle and Roll" period,) Johnny Guitar Watson (waay pre disco,) Guitar
> Slim, Big Maybelle, Big Mama Thornton,...  Blues or R&B?  I first heard
> B. B. King, Albert King, Albert Collins, and some others on soul music
> radio stations along with James Brown and the usual suspects.
>
> Certainly the categories are useful.  They're useful in a descriptive
> way, not a prescriptive way.  Like any categories things get fuzzy
> around the edges and neighbors tend to overlap.  There's no doubt that
> black and white musicians listened to each others' music and, to some
> extent, influenced each other.  It doesn't mean that Muddy Waters wanted
> to sound like Webb Pierce.
>
> One more factoid:  In the '60s and '70s Blind John Davis, who played on
> many of the great blues records that came out of Chicago in the '30s and
> '40s including most of the sides SBWI recorded, had a regular gig
> playing cocktail piano in a bar in Chicago.  He played standards and
> current hits.
>
> Fritz Bros Tunes:  http://www.youtube.com/user/**
> thefritzbrothers?feature=watch<http://www.youtube.com/user/thefritzbrothers?feature=watch>
>
>
> On 5/30/2012 7:27 AM, MARK SCHOSSOW wrote:
>
>> What country music of the 20s&30s.And Blues never became "r&B." or visa
>> versa.At least that I'm aware of,cuz I've been surprised alot this last
>> week.
>>         Yup.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: Joel Fritz
>> Sent: 30 May 2012 04:21:04 GMT
>> To: BLUES-L@LISTSERV.NETHELPS.COM
>> Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: A heated discussion on 'Race, Gender&  the Blues'
>>
>> The most obvious thing I can cite is an almost perfect note for note
>> cover of Blind Lemon Jefferson's "Matchbox Blues" by a (white) guy named
>> Larry Hensley.  Sylvester Weaver's "Guitar Rag" became the country
>> standard instrumental "Steel Guitar Rag."  Dick Justice's "Cocaine
>> Blues" echoes the style of Virginia blues player Luke Jordan.  Kokomo
>> Arnold's "Milk Cow Blues" became a country standard in the '30s.  It was
>> even covered by Elvis.  On the other hand Casey Bill Weldon and Oscar
>> Woods played Hawaiian style guitar very similar to the style that led to
>> country steel guitar.  Weldon was very popular in his day.  His biggest
>> hit was probably "I'm Going to Move to the Outskirts of Town," which he
>> wrote.  "What's the Matter With the Mill" was a standard in the
>> repertoire of western swing bands.  A group including Big Bill Broonzy
>> and Thomas A. Dorsey recorded a song called "Eagle Riding Papas" that
>> was also used, with slightly different lyrics, as Bob Wills' theme
>> song.  Starting in New Orleans in the 1890s or so, a tune called "My
>> Bucket's Got a Hole in It" was recorded by all sorts of black and white
>> players.  It was one of Buddy Bolden's signature tunes.  Some of you may
>> remember the version by Ricky Nelson.  :)   I like the Washboard Sam
>> version myself.   Sam McGee recorded a few fingerpicking tunes that
>> could have just as easily been done by any number of the East Coast
>> blues players from the '20s and '30s like Gary Davis, Buddy Moss, Blind
>> Boy Fuller, Josh White....
>>
>> On the other side, Chuck Berry's "Maybelline" was originally called "Ida
>> Red."
>>
>> Fritz Bros Tunes:  http://www.youtube.com/user/**
>> thefritzbrothers?feature=watch<http://www.youtube.com/user/thefritzbrothers?feature=watch>
>>
>>
>> On 5/29/2012 2:54 PM, Steve Ahola wrote:
>>
>>> Harri:
>>>
>>> If you go back to the 20's and 30's country and blues artists often
>>> played the same songs and I believe that they did influence each other a
>>> lot. When we get to the 40's and 50's there was less of a mutual
>>> influence as country became C&W and blues became R&B.  (But it was said
>>> that when Earl Hooker was touring in the south he would show up at C&W
>>> clubs and blow their socks off with his playing.)
>>>
>>> Steve Ahola
>>>
>>> On 5/29/2012 2:23 PM, Harri Haka wrote:
>>>
>>>> I had the priviilige of meeting Willie "Big Eyes" Smith two months
>>>> before he died. We talked about white singers with a black voice e.g.
>>>> Tom Jones. And Charley Pride and Ray Charles doing c&w. I doubt that
>>>> blues musicians were actually influenced by c&w and  all of us can hear
>>>> this on recordings and live shows. To be a smart ass, one might say that
>>>> every musician is influenced by Beethoven. But Chuck Berry gave his
>>>> answer to that question.
>>>> Harri
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 29.5.2012 6:09, Tom Hyslop kirjoitti:
>>>>
>>>>> Harri,
>>>>>
>>>>>  Respectfully submitted, your position as stated is simply incorrect.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Every bluesman of a certain age that I have interviewed - including
>>>>> Magic Slim, Phillip Walker, Big Jack Johnson, John Primer, and many
>>>>> others - professed a deep and abiding love for country music. Whether
>>>>> it was an innate feeling for the style or the fact that it was all
>>>>> they heard on the radio, as has been mentioned, does not much matter.
>>>>> Howlin' Wolf cited the yodeling of The Singing Brakeman, Jimmie
>>>>> Rodgers, as the inspiration for his own vocalizations. Mel Brown
>>>>> toured with Tompall Glaser, just as he did with Bobby Bland; Glaser is
>>>>> a country artist. You can look it up. Or you can continue to believe
>>>>> what you want, rather than to face facts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> tom
>>>>>
>>>>> At 3:34 AM +0300 5/29/12, Harri Haka wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Like I was saying, there was not a general interest for country music
>>>>>> among the wider black audience. It is of course natural for a talent
>>>>>> like B.B. King to have studied all genres including country and jazz.
>>>>>> But does any of this reflect on his actual playing or singing? He has
>>>>>> flirted with U2, Eric Clapton and others in the past years but I
>>>>>> hardly
>>>>>> find a c&w influence on any of his recordings. Mississippi John
>>>>>> Hurt is
>>>>>> greatly respected but he was a folk singer and story teller with a
>>>>>> natural connection to country music of his time.
>>>>>> Harri
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 29.5.2012 2:35, jinxblues@aol.com kirjoitti:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Not wanting to take part in the c&w discussion more than to say
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>     there was never a general interest in country music within the
>>>>>>> black
>>>>>>>     community.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     ------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     This is absolutely not true.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Blues people growing up in the south in the 1930s and 1940s all
>>>>>>> listened to WLAC (Nashville) with its powerful signal.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     B.B.King told me in great detail how he had listen to Gene Autry
>>>>>>> and Red Foley and Jimmy Rogers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Mississippi John Hurt's "Let the Mermaids Flirt with me" is
>>>>>>> unmistakably Jimmy Rogers'"All Around the Water Tank" a/k/a "Waiting
>>>>>>> for a Train."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dick Waterman
>>>>>>> 1601 Buchanan Avenue
>>>>>>> Oxford, MS 38655
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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